Master of Stealth vs. Guerilla Warfare

As things stand, the advantages of guerilla warfare far outweigh it's disadvantages when compared to MoS. Witness the single biggest drawback of Guerilla Warfare: transport cost and range. Let's assume the player has cheaper transport and +2 capacity: one air transport costs 50 less and will carry 5 Marines
Guerilla Warfare: 750 + 400 = 1150
Master of Stealth: 550 + 5*160 = 1350.

So, the strat which is is bid as "no transports", the one which is sold as "slow moving but really cheap" can move long distances for cheaper than Master of Stealth.

Transports aside, let's look at that cost difference: Half as cheap marines which have 1 atk less and 1 range less. I mean, 80 dollars for marines is incredible: in a low income zone, after turn 10 and with enough countries, you can produce marines like there's no tomorrow.

Now, MoS is not a good strategy. First, the stealth advantage can be heavily mitigated by a good player using defence lines. this can't be helped, and applies to guerilla warfare too. Secondly, the two "big" units of Master of Stealth can't actually cap cities. I find MoS is slow to expand due to costs and essentially relying only on them very expensive marines to take cities.


I suggest that MoS were reworked, somehow, to make the "stealth" aspect a bit more unique? Perhaps Stealthed air transports OR allowing Marines onto Stealth Planes (with a drawback of less defence on all units)? Or +1 marine capacity in submarines?


As things stand (and a few top players agree with me), Master of Stealth is not a viable strategy when you can take Guerilla Warfare instead.

You can't compare strats with numbers, you can only compare them by how each and every player uses them.

Note: I'm not calling for a nerf of GWF. Just want to see MoS changed to make it feel like more of a unique strategy rather than a more expensive, deluxe and ultimately, worse, version of GWF.


edit: Care to elaborate? I believe number crunching is a perfectly objective way of comparing strats, to a large extent. If I had to monitor how everyone uses each strat, I would make it my full-time job.

Scris de BASED Ironail, 06.06.2011 at 21:59

Note: I'm not calling for a nerf of GWF. Just want to see MoS changed to make it feel like more of a unique strategy rather than a more expensive, deluxe and ultimately, worse, version of GWF.


edit: Care to elaborate? I believe number crunching is a perfectly objective way of comparing strats, to a large extent. If I had to monitor how everyone uses each strat, I would make it my full-time job.

I personnaly favor MoS over GW, mainly for my easy aqquisition of money, thus marines become expendable and with the perks of MoS over the discount in GW, i'd prefer MoS seeing as I already have enough money for many marines.

I'm sorry Gard~, but then you never played a bigger map than europe to say that. The buff on atack of MoS marines are useless against a good GW player, that can easily double or even triple the number of marines of it's oponent in few turns.

And there is still another economic factor you should calculate Iron: GW players can construct a solid defense with almost no cost

GW militias = 5/5 (+1 in cities and walls) $20 each.

PS: Just like Iron I'm not asking for a nerf on GW, since I think I'm one of (if not the one) that played more games as GW and I know it's bad points and counters, being far from other [easy mode] strategies, but maybe thinking about some small changes on MoS wouldn't hurt anyone.

GW is the Imperialist to MoS's Iron Fist.

Might be fast at first, but usually not as good in the long run, at least on a world or E+A+A map.

MoS also gives you one huge advantage late game: Stealth planes and Subs will always attack first.

GW's advantages are a lot bigger than imperialist's though, but I think MoS would win out on big, sea crossing maps.

Scris de Pinheiro, 06.06.2011 at 22:26

I'm sorry Gard~, but then you never played a bigger map than europe to say that. The buff on atack of MoS marines are useless against a good GW player, that can easily double or even triple the number of marines of it's oponent in few turns.

And there is still another economic factor you should calculate Iron: GW players can construct a solid defense with almost no cost

GW militias = 5/5 (+1 in cities and walls) $20 each.

PS: Just like Iron I'm not asking for a nerf on GW, since I think I'm one of (if not the one) that played more games as GW and I know it's bad points and counters, being far from other [easy mode] strategies, but maybe thinking about some small changes on MoS wouldn't hurt anyone.

Remind me again how playing euro games more than any other means I know nothing of bigger games? Strategys dont need to be nerfed nor changed, they were all built equal, it's how you use them. Just because most people get clobbered when using MoS doesn't mean all do. MoS is a fairly good strategy with fairly good perks, like all strategys have. It all depends on what you attack, how you attack it, and what you attack it with when determining how your economy will be. If you have a good economy, you can buy counter units to destroy marines easily. You do not have to change anything to accomplish this- it all depends on what you, the player, decide to do while using it.
If you wish to win game alone, your best bet with MoS is to capture major countrys on whatever map your on, like Pakistan, Germany or Nigeria. With these major countrys captured, you now posess more money, thus more units to combat the other players impressive stacks of miltia/marines. To take on marines, you can take them piece by piece, or if you have the luck, using tanks, or the easiest way- just continue to block your opponents stacks every turn so you may take his empire out while his troops are stuck. I should also mention the use of air stealth and marine stealth- on a map like Oceania, you need to use subs to constantly bombard enemy ports like Cebu so the troop count is low and possibility for invasion is high. Stealth jets are also fantastic as a replacement for Bombers- they may cost more, but get the job done better. Sentry planes are also crucial when using MoS- as they can seek out a player using GW's marines so you have a chance to destroy them before they do any damage.

Citat:

more expensive, deluxe and ultimately, worse, version of GWF.

Damn, are you serious? They're incomparable to each other, they're just for various purposes. MoS is more expensive but it also more powerful. MoS gives increased stats for marines, submarines (and they DO have +1 capacity) and stealth planes (with coast, reduced by 100 gold! 20g more than discount on GWF marines) and penalties only for tanks and destroyers, while GWF gives increased stats only to militia and enfeebles four units.

So stop asking to overpower strategy that is good as it is.

Scris de Ska-boo, 06.06.2011 at 22:50

Citat:

more expensive, deluxe and ultimately, worse, version of GWF.

Damn, are you serious? They're incomparable to each other, they're just for various purposes. MoS is more expensive but it also more powerful. MoS gives increased stats for marines, submarines (and they DO have +1 capacity) and stealth planes (with coast, reduced by 100 gold! 20g more than discount on GWF marines) and penalties only for tanks and destroyers, while GWF gives increased stats only to militia and enfeebles four units.

So stop asking to overpower strategy that is good as it is.

This.

I agree.

GW is a short term strat, MoS is a long term strat.

They are fine as they are.

I think MoS is a decent strat as it is, It's just a more situational strat whereas GW is just spam marines and militia stack which is why I would rather see a GW nerf than a MoS buff.

GW really does suck against a different continent though, having tried it many times myself.

http://afterwind.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=1109
I agree with Ironail and Pinheiro (though the latter changed his mind).

Scris de Ska-boo, 06.06.2011 at 22:50

submarines (and they DO have +1 capacity)

Holy crap, you're absolutely right. Serves me right for not doing my research harder. That does change the ball game a lot: makes MoS far more attractive if you have the cash to splurge...

Scris de Aristosseur, 07.06.2011 at 04:33

http://afterwind.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=1109
I agree with Ironail and Pinheiro (though the latter changed his mind).

You are right. I totally changed my mind after playing against some good MoS players and trying it myself. Still, the submarines + marines combo is a good attack, but not enought, and you were not putting into account the discount for submarines on MoS.

I'm not asking for a big buff or anything. The point here is: MoS can only be played in Europe and US. Maybe it has to be that way. If it's Master of STEALTH, maybe the Stealth airplanes could get a little buff or have it's price lowered, since they are rarely used today.

I call anyone here for a fight in a map bigger than Europe + and try to beat my GW using MoS. If you can do that than I will change my mind.

Scris de Pinheiro, 07.06.2011 at 07:28

I call anyone here for a fight in a map bigger than Europe + and try to beat my GW using MoS. If you can do that than I will change my mind.

So, how about a Eurasiafrica, 10K start, and I use MoS. Woudl you be starting East Asia, and I would be starting in Europe?

That or the other way around, as you prefer. We don't even have to be far from each other anyway.

If you are that far I believe that MoS should win.

That's what we're trying to prove. I think it's pretty much a given that MoS would lose to GW on a small map, or if both start "close" to each other.

GW VS MoS= GW WINS IN ANY MAP.

GW has more capability to expand unlike MoS, it's cheaper therefore you can spam it (if you have 140 moneis you can only buy 1 marine with MoS but with GW you can buy 2 AKA 2vs1), the militia is always helpful.

BY THE END OF THE FUCKING DAY YOU WILL HAVE 999 MARINES FROM GW VS 500 MARINES FROM MoS.OH AND BY THE TIME YOU TAKE EUROPE (MoS) I WILL HAVE ASIA(GW).ISN'T THAT FUCKING FUNNY?

Scris de Vafika, 08.06.2011 at 05:35

GW VS MoS= GW WINS IN ANY MAP.

No, GW will only win in small/poor maps.

Scris de Vafika, 08.06.2011 at 05:35

GW has more capability to expand unlike MoS, it's cheaper therefore you can spam it (if you have 140 moneis you can only buy 1 marine with MoS but with GW you can buy 2 AKA 2vs1), the militia is always helpful.
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Citat:

Uhhhhh... this is only if you have the cheaper marines upgrade.

Scris de Vafika, 08.06.2011 at 05:35

BY THE END OF THE FUCKING DAY YOU WILL HAVE 999 MARINES FROM GW VS 500 MARINES FROM MoS.OH AND BY THE TIME YOU TAKE EUROPE (MoS) I WILL HAVE ASIA(GW).ISN'T THAT FUCKING FUNNY?

show me the screenshot. Or at least have a respected player back you up on this claim.

For starters I'm Vafika so watch your mouth. I'm more experienced on GW and MoS than you and refrain from commenting on this thread, please.

I talk for my experience and from what I see everyday.

As an experienced player in both strategies I can say:

Citat:

No, GW will only win in small/poor maps.

That's not a rule. I've already played a lot of Whole World games and GW is a great strategy to be played on them, but maybe others didn't realize it yet.

Auto-product militias (5/5+1) on your backup cities and you will never have to watch for sneak attacks, don't even bother building walls, they are unnecessary.

Build cheap marines and spread them on the map to avoid a one-frontier-war, as soon as you capture an opponent's capital build militia on them and keep moving your marines to other cities.

Don't use transports, choose submarines instead, they are not expensive and still have a good movement range.

Citat:

show me the screenshot. Or at least have a respected player back you up on this claim.

I don't have at the moment, but I can take it later. Will you believe me if I tell you my games almost never finish with me having less than 4k units? Once I managed to put 2,5k militias in a serious game, while advancing into the hearts of Europe.

JUST IN TIME (again):
I'm not asking for a nerf to GW since it's still easily countered if facing a smart player. Neither asking for a huge buff to MoS, but some minor changes could help to make it a little more attractive to other players.

Probably a bit late to the party, I find that a Guerrilla Warfare UK is a good start in larger games. I generally can get all Europe (not always as I am still learning), and in the late game Europe has enough income were the transports are not a problem to buy while auto producing militia in my capital. I don't see master of stealth being able to pull that off quite so easily. I still see MoS has a more expensive GW, and I rarely find good use for MoS. I agree with Ironail's original idea. There could be a different way to make MoS more unique. Though the submarine transport bonus is great.

But GW isn't always the best, other strat, depending on the player. A Nerf on GW would be a plain bad idea. It is a relatively easy strat to get a hold of, and for new players to have a decent shot attracts them to this game while giving them a chance to learn. And GW can still be used and adapted by the player into new ways.

GW should definitely stay as is, yes.

Damn I've been saying just about everything thats on this thread since this whole thing started lol.

GW is for europe/africa/SA

MoS is for just about everything else.

Deal with it.

If you have the Submarine Capacity,Expendable Marines,Faster Marines,and faster Subs it makes MoS a very powerful strat considering your subs are already fast with MoS combined with faster subs you are god speed and with faster marines you have 8 movment with Marines and with expendable marines you get 130 marines and Sub Capacity you can get up to 4 Marines in a sub so if you hae all these upgrades(possibly only the higher ranks considering the SP you need to get them)MoS is amazing

I have all these and it's not even close to amazing. The problem is marines are expensive and die very fast. if you take 8 marines and attack 8 militia you can easily lose half your troops,, now look at the math. 8 marines 1k dollars 8 militia (in gw pricing is 16 dollars)

compare gw to MoS

1,300 gets you 10 marines in MoS

1000 dollars gets you 50 militia, what's better?

I've noticed subs die before marines, this makes for fun stacking.

Agreed. MoS needs changing. I occasionally use it but I always prefer GW even with it's slower units. It have power advantages but they aren't worth it.

Would you rather have nerfed MoS where noobs use it and you just Pawn them or OPd MoS like before where Marines had godlike power and any noob could use it or Godlike marines during the Beta days